Arlo West - Bold Conversations
Gem and Arlo talk about navigating the current climate as trans and neurodivergent folk, the importance of community and solidarity, and how inclusivity should be the default in all spaces because it benefits everyone. They chat about how the business world often gatekeeps knowledge, Arlo's openness to sharing their experience to support other self-employed creatives, and how much better the world would be if we all acted more like Paddington. Plus lots more!
Arlo West (they/them) is a freelance graphic designer and founder of Studio Arlo, where they offer sh*t hot branding and web design to queer, trans and neurodivergent individuals and small businesses. They are also a Director of Trans Pride Manchester and the founder of Not Your Business, a community for queer, trans and neurodivergent creative freelancers.
If you'd like to experience more Arlo in your life:
Studio Arlo - https://www.studioarlo.co.uk/
Not Your Business - https://notyourbusiness.co.uk/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/studioarlo.png/
TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@studioarlo.png
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/studioarlo/
Transcript
All right, so it looks like we are live. Hi Arlo, I will introduce you and then I'm gonna do that really annoying thing that some people do and get you to introduce yourself. But just telling us a little bit more because obviously there might be things that you want to add. So yeah, I'm very, very excited to be joined by Arlo who is a freelance graphic designer and founder of Studio Arlo where they offer shit hot branding and web design to queer, trans and neurodivergent individuals and small businesses.
Arlo West (:I'm
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:They're also a director of Trans Pride Manchester and the founder of Not Your Business, a community for queer, trans and neurodivergent creative freelancers. And when ⁓ someone recommended us having this conversation, I was like, my gosh, yes, because I hadn't come across you before. And now I just think you're super cool. So thank you for being here. ⁓ Would it be okay to just introduce yourself a little bit more if there's anything you want to add?
Arlo West (:⁓ Thank you.
Sure, I mean, they're the first two things that I normally go off with, exactly what you've just said. But a bit about me personally, I'm a trans non-binary individual, I'm autistic and also have ADHD, but my neurodivergence isn't like with an official diagnosis. I don't think that is necessary for me or a lot of people because there's lots of like gatekeeping around that. And then me personally, I love dogs, dinosaurs and Disney. My core values are humor, humble and honest.
all the alliterations here. But yeah, as I said, I'm a graphic designer. I run a studio, Arlo and I've been doing that for a year and a few months now. So I'm still very much a baby and still learning, but it's I'm excited. yeah.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah,
what an introduction. love that you also have like, I don't know if illiterated as a word, but that you have three, you know, three things in there, alliteration, that is very pleasing. ⁓ And just to go back a step, I totally agree with you. have, so I'm not diagnosed formally or identified formally as ADHD and had the initial part of an assessment for autism. And the psychologist was like, I think we know what we're going to find.
⁓ after ⁓ you could have like one session, then you could pay to have more. ⁓ And I also didn't like decide at that time to continue for various reasons. But ⁓ yeah, I think that's important to mention because often lots of people feel like they can't identify as autistic or ADHD unless they have a formal diagnosis. And I have problems with that whole thing anyway. ⁓ So yeah, just to say that. Yeah, and I guess...
Arlo West (:Thank
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:I have so many questions, but I tried to send you some that were, that could keep me on track with my enthusiasm. ⁓ So I wondered if you'd be happy just to tell us a little bit about what you're doing or how you're doing right now, given the current climate ⁓ as a trans and autistic person. How you doing?
Arlo West (:I mean, let's not sugarcoat what's going on in the world, especially in the UK. Things are incredibly tough. ⁓ not just for me, but for my other trans and non-binary siblings and other neurodivergent folks around as well. think the recent Supreme Court ruling and the EHRC guidance have like, I've already seen an impact in them in my everyday life. ⁓
So I've had an experience at a gym where people would just like ignore, like not coming to the machine next to me because I was wearing a protect trans youth t-shirt with a big print on the back and they were like, nah, not going to stand next to you. I don't know. Okay, fine. Whatever. So that's how I've seen it affecting my daily life. And I hadn't kind of experienced that before. Um, and then also I've had to email networking spaces and my gym, be like, what are your trans inclusion policies? And I think.
having to be more vigilant on things that I haven't necessarily had to be on before is just very emotionally draining. And then there's not just that kind of impact. There's like, my work is also, I'm seeing an impact on that as well, not necessarily through the type of work that I'm doing my clients, because they are all queer trans and neurodivergent, which is, know, chef's kiss, but the emotional toll of...
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Arlo West (:literally just the world is bleeding into my my work life but as I said yeah I'm incredibly lucky that all of my clients are incredibly understanding and they have that lived experience too and so you know making sure that I'm not having to push like push through a day where I'm like I'm not feeling it they're like no Arlo you you do you like that's fine whenever you're ready and ready to go is something that I have an incredible privilege with but at the same time like I'm not necessarily
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:home.
Arlo West (:just struggling. ⁓ I'm trying to feel the feelings and be like, actually, you the world is quite terrible at the moment and not being naive to that. But I'm also trying to do what I can in the world. So I did a recent interview with ITV News up in Manchester speaking about the Supreme Court ruling. As you said, I'm also organising Trans Pride Manchester 2025, which will be our third year. And then I'm very vocal on the internet ⁓ and I'm known for being the controversial one.
Even though it's not controversial and we'll get onto that later, but I speak about things on the internet and social media. God, I sound like I'm on the internet. I call things out when they need to be called out and I also support others, my clients, others just in life. It is heavy, but you know, I'm trying to do what I can with the resources and capacity and energy that I have whilst protecting myself. Sorry, I really went on there.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:No,
I love it. Please don't apologize. And yeah, and it's just, I mean, yes, so many things. And I think the benefit of working in your community, like supporting other trans and neurodivergent people and queer people is great because you have that like sense of solidarity. And also, obviously, you know that you're not going to get turned down for a job, for example, because you are trans or autistic. ⁓
Arlo West (:Okay. Yeah.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:And also it can mean that we're interfacing with like a lot of other people that are struggling at the same time. And I've certainly noticed that in my one-to-one work as well, that, you know, it's tough right now. And so, yeah, it's a challenge kind of like, how do we keep ourselves afloat whilst also supporting other people and, you know, doing what we can to make change. Yeah, it can be a lot.
Arlo West (:It is, but you know, I think it's whole solidarity thing, isn't it? You know, we are all better together than we are pretending these things aren't affecting us when actually the majority of people it is affecting. I mean, not just trans people now, like it's affecting like cis women. I mean, we knew that was going to happen all along, but I shan't get into that.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah.
Do do do
Yeah, surprise.
Yeah, exactly. ⁓ And also, in case anyone wasn't here for Adam's, like my conversation I had with Adam earlier, they might be wondering like, well, how are autistic people struggling? Like, why is, is that kind of part of the conversation? And obviously, that's part of our identities, like both of us share that. And but I think also, there's a lot of as
often happens, you know, we've seen it with disabled people in terms of benefit cuts that have been, you know, in the news a lot recently. So people are potentially being affected that way. But then also there's stuff going on in other places in the world, for example, in the US with this idea of a register for autistic people. ⁓ And so like, just to bring in like why we're not just talking about the trans experience, we could obviously be talking about any kind of marginalized identity right now, including cis women in that. ⁓ But it's just that these happen to be our identities and we're kind of...
Arlo West (:Okay.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:focusing on those, guess.
Arlo West (:And there's also the, like, there's a massive intersection, could again could talk about this for days, there's a massive intersection between like, the queer community, the trans community, and neurodivergence, like, at this point, it might as well just be a full circle. But I think, yeah, there's so much intersectionality with lots of different identities. yeah, as you said, it's not something to be necessarily ignored.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so I'm kind of thinking then what is helping you to get through these times? Obviously, you've mentioned like that sense of connection, that sense of solidarity, but is there anything like an idea or thing, an activity that's helping you to get through?
Arlo West (:Um, so just special interests, Lego, dogs, dinosaurs, Disney. There we go. Um, back in, um, but, and this is going to sound quite big headed or egotistical, but the people that I have and the members within the not your business community have really been such a, like such a nice place to be because they get it.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:You
Uh-huh.
Mm-hmm.
Arlo West (:and it's not all just about business. I'm like, yeah, actually, the recent Supreme Court ruling, how's everyone doing? Like, we're all checking in on one another because we truly get what it's like to have that lived experience and that identity, but also trying to run a business and juggling all of that additional strain and stress that comes with that. And so like, if anyone from not your business is listening, like I'm grateful for like every single member that is in there because I think...
Ultimately, it wouldn't be a community without the people that are in it. I think, yeah, when those days that are feeling really heavy, just being able to be in that space, we're showing up for each other, we're being nice and nurturing is just, it's just really humbling. Again, core value. There we go.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yes, love that.
It's almost like you work in sort of marketing and branding. Just like weaving the things back in. good. Yeah. And also hearing you talk about not your business, it makes me think of people that might be listening to this who, I mean, we're incredibly lucky. We have, by the sounds of it, like both of us, really great community around us, both through the work we do and like from, you know, just other like queer connections. ⁓
Arlo West (:Ooh, this is all completely unintentional, but I'm like, I've said that earlier!
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:neurodivergent connections. I'm also thinking about people who don't have that and maybe are feeling like they're the only queer person they know or the only trans person they know or they're not out. This is sort of like an off-piste question, but one, guess, like who could join Not Your Business? And is there space? ⁓ Who's there for? And also, ⁓ are there any other recommendations that you would have in terms of helping people to find the kinds of communities that we clearly benefit massively from?
Arlo West (:Sure, I'll do the plug first. ⁓ So Not Your Business is a community for queer, trans and or neurodivergent freelancers, mixture of two or more or just one, that is absolutely fine. You don't have to be like super experienced. So we've got people there that have just taken the leap to go freelancing in the last month, right? ⁓ because I truly believe that
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Arlo West (:we as marginalized identities deserve to be able to go freelance or self-employed because The world isn't built for the way that typically doesn't work for our brains, right? And a lot of the information on how to go self-employed or what you should do is gate-kept by who I like to call juries, cis men who hate their wife and kids and
That's why I'm also so open about all of my experience of being a freelancer and that journey on the internet because there's enough money, there's enough clients, there's resources to go around and ultimately, this sounds again very cliche, but you can't be what you can't see, right? ⁓ And so I needed somebody like me growing up to look up to me and go, actually it is possible to not just be stuck in a nine to five. I've had...
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Hmm.
Yes. Yeah.
Arlo West (:workplace redundancies and transphobia at work. I didn't want that for myself. There is also space in not your, sorry, I went on an ADHD tangent then. There's space for members at Not Your Business. ⁓ It's currently like quite small, less than 50. I don't anticipate it getting huge. That's not what I want, because then it gets overwhelming for us all and then it defeats the purpose of it, right? And so yes, there is space for that and you get your first month entirely free. If that...
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:No, no, love it. Keep going.
Arlo West (:that's useful for you to try before you buy. And then in terms of other spaces and community finding outside of kind of like a business sense.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:You
Arlo West (:the internet can be a terrible place, but it can also be a really, really lovely place to be when you get yourself in the right, in the right spaces. ⁓ so whether that's reaching out to people on Instagram, am I showing my age? Instagram? ⁓ or Facebook? TikTok is a bizarre one. I've not necessarily found identity community on TikTok. ⁓ it's not something that I've been looking for. ⁓
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Arlo West (:But Instagram just messaging people, like, hi, how are you? Like, wanna chat? But not in a weird creepy way. But then also there are lots of, like, Pride, trans Prides, queer groups around not just the UK, like the entire world, that run, are now running things outside of, like, just Pride month and just Pride events. ⁓ And so I would highly recommend, like, just reaching out to those places, because they will also in their local area have a bank of...
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Hahaha!
Arlo West (:knowledge of like, here's a group or here's this thing. So in my local area, there's a queer coffee shop that do a monthly walk on a Sunday just to get people together. And I can recommend that to people because that's in my local area. So I would recommend that a lot.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:you
Yeah, great. And I think just going back a step to what you were saying around, if you can't see it, you can't be it, that we often talk about how important it is to have queer elders, for example, like no matter what age they are, but just have that experience and trans elders. but we don't really talk about that in a business sense. Or if we do, we're thinking about like networks in big corporates who, you know, have like a LGBTQIA plus panel or like a group and actually
Arlo West (:Hmm
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:seeing people, like I've been thinking about this a lot recently and Kaye Tempest is someone who I like, look to as a person who the thing they wanted to do or like the ways in which they wanted to be didn't really exist in the same way. And so they kind of made it up themselves. And I think there's, that's really great. But like, after we've had to do a lot of that, like figuring things out for ourselves, querying things, making them work. So the idea of being able to be in connection with other people.
Arlo West (:Yeah.
Yeah.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:and like look to, okay, well, how did you do this? Or how did you figure that thing out? It's really great, especially when a lot of us don't have that in like a biological family sense either.
Arlo West (:And what makes me laugh is people look to me a lot of the time and go, how did you do that? Or like, how have you managed to figure that out? And I'm like, I don't know, I'm still I'm still figuring it out. I that's what is so not great about me. I'm perfect. What is like, I truly don't gatekeep anything. And so if you go
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah.
You
Hmm.
Arlo West (:How did you do that? And I'm like, I either A, don't know when it was a happy accident, B, I'm still figuring it out or C, I'm trying this and I'm seeing if it works. Like I am very open with how I'm like navigating the world as a now business owner is just not just like trans people need to do it. Like that's not the burden that we should be carrying as marginalized identities. But if everybody was open.
the world would be a much better place to be about like the tips and tricks of the trade. They're not tips and tricks, like give advice and it doesn't have to be behind a paywall either, you know?
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
exactly. Yeah, for sure. yeah, I mean, think that's such a... It comes from essentially like from schooling and from capitalism, right? This idea that there's knowledge and you when you get to a certain level or you have a certain amount of money, you're allowed to access the knowledge until then, sorry, you can't come in. ⁓ And that is quite shit. ⁓ so yeah, DIYing for the win, but then also like being able to share DIY tips with each other, not literally DIY. I mean, that also, but...
Arlo West (:Thank
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:know, about how to do things ourselves. ⁓ Yeah. I mean, I have like a lot of questions. I feel like there's so many strands of this that are like all things I love to talk about. Okay, I'm just gonna have a breath. And actually, it makes me think of before we started, ⁓ we had like a really brief chat where I was saying like, about, ⁓ I'm going to say if I don't know something, and you said like, you're exactly the same, and that there's a real, it can feel really vulnerable to just be like,
Arlo West (:you
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:I don't know, or good question. But especially as late identified neurodivergent people, we've often had to like wing it a lot of the time to get to the place where we are, you know, whatever that is in life. I don't mean like a certain level or anything, just literally like to still be alive. And a lot of that I remember from a young age was kind of being like, yeah, totally get it. Everything is like got it all together.
very organized, I know what's happening and inside being like, my god, I have no idea. And so now it's quite liberating to be like, I don't know, sorry, or, you know, I'll help you figure it out or I'll go and ask someone who does. And yeah, sorry, that was a long ramble, but maybe you have any thoughts about her? Great. ⁓
Arlo West (:Okay.
I do. do. Believe it or not, we're two ADHDers in a room together. We can go for ages.
I completely resonate with everything that you said. It's like words at school and you're like, mm-hmm, does everyone understand that children? Yes. Not so. I don't know. But the fear of being like, no, actually, I don't know. because then obviously there's like peers and the peer pressure of being at school, which is always a terrible time when you are like either closeted as like a queer person. I didn't know.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yep.
Yeah.
Arlo West (:I didn't know I was trans at school. It makes it all make sense. also didn't know that I was autistic at school. Everything I'm being at it a little bit too much by myself here. But also, wholeheartedly believe nobody has any idea what they're doing. I think that's like a weird conspiracy theory. Whether you're like...
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Mm-hmm.
You
Hahaha!
Mm-hmm.
Hahaha!
Arlo West (:⁓ I'm talking about this in a business sense because that's what I typically do when I do this analogy, but like, whether you're a day in, a month in, a year in, ten years in, or like, hundred would be bold if you're still working. But like, no one knows exactly what they're doing a hundred percent of the time about a hundred percent of things because that's just unachievable. And I think the more open and honest we are being, I don't know, but I can find the person who does know or I can learn because I want to.
Again, the world would be a much better place to be in. Ultimately, if you don't say like, I don't know, and you pretend that you know everything, you're not human, right? And I think people personally, professionally, whatever sense that you're looking at it, forget that there are, we are just humans. This is our, put this in like lights with the live, laugh, love sign. This is our first time living too. Like we're all still figuring it out and like.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:No.
Arlo West (:I've come to terms with the fact that like, that's okay, that I don't know, I don't know everything. I don't want to know everything. Actually, I don't want to be the person that everyone goes, that's too much pressure. ⁓ Being open and just ultimately just being a human being and reminding people mistakes happen, life happens. I don't know, or I do know this, this is how I've done it, might not work for you. We're all just human. I went really too far, didn't I?
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah.
you
Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, I
love that. Speaking of profound, had like a, I've had this thought a lot recently that like, okay, I'm just going to pick people. So for example, like Beyonce or like K Tempest or, you know, any other cool person, they didn't know that they were going to be Beyonce or K Tempest when they like started out. And I think often there's this, maybe it's just me, but this thought of like, those people were
Arlo West (:you
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:always like that. And they were always destined to like do things that they were passionate about and that they were good at. But like, they also had to work and figure these things out too. And I don't know if I'm making sense, but there's something for me about like, no one when you're born, no one's like, I name this child, like whatever, whatever, and they will be this. Like everyone is figuring it out. And yeah, and maybe that's helpful in the sense that you can come to things whenever you come to them, you can
Arlo West (:Mm-hmm.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:know, like you don't have to know it all now or do even be doing the thing that you're passionate about right now. It can come in time, whether that's when you're 60, 110, we've been in business 100 years, maybe going into business at 10 is a early. Or any age.
Arlo West (:I mean, big respect to you.
Absolutely, I think. Ultimately, wasn't built. I'm coming out with all the phrases today. Rome wasn't built in a day. This is what I was originally going to say. Success doesn't happen overnight. You think it does, and that that's what should happen to you. But again, over the last 12 months just running Studio Arlo, I've had to try and really get rid of the shoulds. I left.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:You
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Arlo West (:I left full-time employment because I don't want to work 9-5. I don't want to reply to an email as soon as it comes in. I don't want to do all of these things because that's what we should do. Why am I forcing myself down that little box? I am my own boss. I can work whenever I want. I can work in my pants if I wanted to. Like no one would know unless I was on a call and stood up. Am I my pants right now? Ooh!
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yep.
you
Yeah.
who
knows? now i'm like could you just go and get that lego over there?
Arlo West (:I am, I can confirm I am wearing trousers.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Good news, okay. So now I'm like, it doesn't have to be good news, like wear whatever you want, I don't mind. ⁓ Okay, anyway, ⁓ I feel like, you know, as with classic ADHD connections, I feel like I could talk to you for a long time about those different things, but I'm also conscious that you have prepared some things for some cool questions I sent you, so let's ask those. ⁓ So yes, maybe this kind of links with what we've just been talking about, but.
Arlo West (:Hahaha
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Do you have in mind a particular time when you made like a really bold choice ⁓ and how did that change you?
Arlo West (:I think it was the leap to go self-employed for lots of different reasons. I think you're again you're told don't go self-employed it's going to be the riskiest thing you ever do. You know it's the least secure you'll ever be. I can the hand on heart say I have never felt more secure than I have over the last 13-14 months of being self-employed.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Okay.
And then...
Wow, okay.
Arlo West (:I'm not, yeah, as I've touched on already, I'm not living by other people's woulds, shoulds, expectations. ⁓ because the world wasn't built for people like me to navigate the workplace and I've had horrific experiences in workplaces. Whether that's... So I came out as trans in a workplace because I interviewed for the role as my deadname and she/her and by the time I'd finished uni and started this role I'd cut my hair, changed my name, changed my pronouns like
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Wow,
okay.
Arlo West (:Surprise everyone! I didn't necessarily have the best experience with that. I've also been made redundant like I think like five times since 2019. I workplace transphobia in a massive massive organisation and I Going self-employed I can't make me redundant and I can't be transphobic to myself right? mean the bar is really quite low.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Nice day!
Wow.
Yeah.
Arlo West (:But that was one of the biggest choices and boldest choices I've made. especially with like, if my mum was listening, be like, no, don't do that. Are you not worried? Or like, there's a lot of pressure on you to make it work. I'm like, if it doesn't work, I always had this mentality of if it doesn't work or things are a bit slow, I'll get myself back to ⁓ &S. Thoroughly enjoyed Turkey team at Christmas time at ⁓ &S. did. And going with that mindset of if it doesn't work out, I can say I've tried.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:You
Arlo West (:But yeah, it's been absolutely life changing. That sounded also very like big, but like I've, I would like to think that I really come into who I am as an individual as well. And I'm, yeah, I'm known as the controversial one on LinkedIn, apparently by people that have never met me other than on LinkedIn. And they come up to me like, my God, are you that? ⁓ one of you again. Yes, I guess I am. But by being vocal about trans rights, like.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Mmm.
Wow.
Arlo West (:my, my, just like my lived experiences of just navigating the world as an individual, ⁓ has allowed me to, yeah, come into who I am as a person, be more confident about showing up in my fullest way that I am able to, because that has also then only allowed me to work with incredible people. ⁓ I don't want to work with people that don't like that I use pronouns. I don't want to work with people that think actually Harry Potter is still the best thing since sliced bread. Not for me.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Mm-hmm.
Bye-bye.
Arlo West (:⁓ And so by being by being authentically me and that word gets thrown around a lot, but I would say that I Wherever you find me whether that's in person on on a video call on the internet wherever I am the same amount of chaos I don't sugarcoat anything. I don't use corporate jargon that I feel is unnecessary I am
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Hmm.
Arlo West (:Arlo West, on or off screen, in or in person, wherever, I am still me because also I've spent too long of my life masking, pretending to be someone I'm not, whether that's transness or like neurodivergence. So I've gone like an olympian at this point. But I would say the way that it's also paid off for me is that I never expected this to happen either. I've been nominated for three awards this year. ⁓
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:you
Amazing!
Arlo West (:I'd be nominated for two Startup UK awards, which I'll find out in three weeks whether I've won either of them. It's great to do that in your first 12 months. And then I was also nominated for a National Diversity Award. Again, blows my mind that people are like, Harlow, you do this thing, you get nominated. But I think that recognition as well isn't me like blowing my own trumpet being that I'm God's gift to her.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah.
Arlo West (:but it just confirms that choosing to go self-employed was the right choice to make for me. I really rambled.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah. No,
I loved it. ⁓ was great. And I think that, ⁓ that's the tension, isn't it, between sort of, when I'm thinking, so, okay, two words that are really important for me, and they're not alliteration, unfortunately, are like bold and gentleness. So I guess like they feel, in the past, I would have thought like, I could only be gentle, and like, couldn't necessarily be bold, because like, they didn't go together. ⁓
Arlo West (:Yeah.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:But what you're describing there, think, is like that, ⁓ taking that big decision and like going into business on your own and being yourself in all of the places is an incredibly bold move, because it's really dangerous potentially. and not to, I don't want to stress you out, but like, I think whereas before we might have thought ⁓ being vocal on the internet was, you know, potentially you might get some trolls or, you know, bit risky, but actually like with everything that's happening, it is
becoming more more dangerous to be ourselves. And there could be the temptation to just be like, fuck it, I'm like, just gonna not then. But I don't know about for you, but for me, it feels like totally impossible. Like, I've opened the box now, like, I can't get back in it.
Arlo West (:Yeah.
I was about to do
the exact same thing, like I've stepped over the line and the door's shut behind me now and it's locked. I also don't know whether I'd want to get back in at this point. It is terrifying and the internet is a horrible place for all, right? Not just Martin, not all identities. And so when you get on the wrong side of the internet, it is...
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, true.
Arlo West (:I just imagine Jerry literally real life writing these comments. I'm like, you know what, Jerry, you pop off. If that's the worst thing that, if that's the thing that gets you going in the morning, what a sad little life you lead, Jerry. But also like navigating like in real life, like just the trans messages that I wear at the gym is risky. And I have not feared for my safety, but I felt
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:I
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Arlo West (:apprehensive like what's going on or even when I'm wearing them out and about I'm like am I gonna be looked at funny if I go into this shop and buy a coffee or whatever ⁓ it is weird but I don't want to go back because I'm not gonna stop being me just because other people think that people like us shouldn't exist in the world because spoiler we've always existed we're gonna continue to exist sorry not sorry
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I did a powerlifting competition a few weeks ago and it's very prescriptive, like what you have to wear, you can't have any sort of like political things. And so the best I could do is wear like one rainbow sock and one trans flag sock. ⁓ But even that, like, it felt quite risky going into such a highly gendered place. And I was really like, do I want to do it? Would I rather just like not?
Arlo West (:Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:But then I thought, fuck no, like, why should I not compete in something? Obviously the categories I choose, like, I don't have a choice of which category I'm into, but like, why should I not compete just because, I don't know, yeah. And that did feel risky. Literally, I was just wearing socks. Like, no, I was wearing other clothes, but I mean, like, I only was wearing, I was just wearing socks that were, you yeah, so.
Arlo West (:You
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah, but like, it's kind of it becomes like you don't really have a choice. It's just who we are. And we're just living our lives. And yeah.
Arlo West (:Mm-hmm.
And it also feels like, well, I also want to caveat, like there are places in which are not safe for people like us to go and I would never put myself in that position or situation. And safety is different for different people for lots of like intersectional identities that they have. But for me, I'm aware I am white. I'm pretty able bodied ⁓ and I'm starting to pass as a male.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly. Yeah.
Arlo West (:which is not me, but you know, if I get not misgendered incorrectly, incorrectly, then I'll take it, but...
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Mm-hmm.
Arlo West (:If we stop wearing t-shirts, stop wearing socks because we want to, it feels like they've won and they don't deserve to win. You deserve to win actually. Yeah, Jerry.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Suck on that, Jerry. Also,
it does kind of make me think of Jerry Halliwell, so I need to like separate those two things because I feel like she would be quite cool on this stuff, but obviously I don't know. ⁓ Yes. Okay. Yeah. Now it's good. Nice. ⁓ Okay. So next question then.
Arlo West (:Maybe Jerry with a J.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:What is something that seems common sense to you? talked about yourself as being a controversial person on the internet. What seems like common sense to you that others would consider a bold opinion? And it sounds like maybe lots of things, but I'm wondering if there's anything in particular that you picked.
Arlo West (:You
⁓ I don't know how bold these are, but they seem...
This common sense for folks like us ⁓ is asking people their names, their chosen names, like what do you want to be addressed by? Whether that's like legally, like My Dad's called Christopher, ⁓ but he likes to be called Chris, right? We give that grace to cis people, but we don't give it to trans people. And also pronouns, everyone should be disclosing their pronouns and access needs because it feels so basic ⁓ and just like the...
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah.
Arlo West (:human decency thing to do, right? But somehow people still think it's too radical or too political in a lot of spaces. It baffles me and it blows my mind that people still think that and that's what is common sense to me that like in my language, like, "Hi, I'm Arlo. My pronouns are they/them. Da da da da. Here are my access needs. If you pick up the phone to me, I am not answering that." Absolutely not happening. Maybe that's also my age and I'm the generation of if you pick up, if you phone me.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Mm-hmm.
Arlo West (:not happening. But when we take the time to ask everybody, like, not just those who we assume to be queer, trans, or neurodivergent, we, how do I phrase it? We create a, like a culture of inclusion by default and not by exception. ⁓ And it normalises, it normalises difference. And I say that in like normalises and difference very not weighted. And it removes
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah, thanks.
Mm-hmm.
Arlo West (:from folks like us who are constantly expected to disclose and explain and advocate for ourselves. just to be able to participate and not be like misgendered or being told like, you know, I'm going to email you or would a video call work instead of a phone call? And so I think what's also common sense is people forget that by being actually inclusive by default benefits literally everybody, we uncover experiences that
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah.
Arlo West (:neurotypical, cishet people actually also find useful in their day-to-day lives, not just like professionally but also personally. And so whether that's like having written resources in advance of a call or like, I loved when you sent me the questions in advance. It's not an interview. Also, even if it is an interview, if I have the questions in advance, what benefit is that gonna have on me? And if you send them to everybody, everybody's winning. No one's fluffing an answer.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Mm-hmm.
You
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Arlo West (:and be like, ah, nah, nah, nah, not saying anything in 500 words, right? because everybody, neurotypical, neurodiverse or not, has different communication styles and things work for different people in different ways. Yeah, and the same goes for the pronouns thing. It reduces assumptions and awkwardness and stops misgendering for literally everybody. And it shouldn't be bold, but people apparently think that it is. Sorry, I got a little lost then I'll stir it myself off.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Thank
Yeah. Love it.
Arlo West (:Hahaha!
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:No, no, no. think, yeah, yes to all of that. And it just made me think of a couple of things. So one of them was around the Pope recently changing his name. Like he became Pope Leo, I think. ⁓ And like all of a sudden, ⁓ it's Pope Leo. You know, like yesterday they were calling him something else, I think, Robert. ⁓ And today not, but that was fine.
Arlo West (:Yeah.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:So there's examples, like so many examples, I was also thinking about people who don't speak English as their first language. So it's not just about giving a heads up to people who might need more processing time for neurodivergent reasons, or people who ⁓ might have anxiety or whatever, it also helps people who might need from a language perspective to prepare or sending the questions in advance, mean. ⁓ There's so many ways in which being inclusive benefits everyone. ⁓
Arlo West (:Mm-hmm.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:And that example of your dad, you wouldn't, if a cis man says what their name is, and then people are like, you for example, like my name's Robert, but you can call me Bob, people would just be like, sure, Bob. Whereas like that just doesn't work for trans people often, does it? It's like, it's okay, no, I'll just call you whatever. yeah, I just.
Arlo West (:call you what i used
to know you as. also no. and it's the same like the whole the pope analogy. yes. when it came out i like are we really going there right now? um, don't think we'll get married.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah.
Yeah.
Arlo West (:Just give us the se- we're not asking for- we're not asking for a lot. If I wanted to be called- if I wanted to be called Jerry tomorrow, and I changed my name, even if it was just a nickname, call me Jerry. What daring does it have on your life?
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Mm. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. And again, I was saying to Adam earlier, I'm conscious not to mention people who I don't really want to like bring into the podcast, you know, a bit like, then I was going to say a Harry Potter reference. I hate Harry Potter, but also because, or like, um, Macbeth, that you're not supposed to say, Alexis Badluck. Um, I just said it. Oh no. Ah! Um, but what I was going to say was like, there's a very famous billionaire in the world who has named his children like quite unusual names.
Arlo West (:Oops!
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:and that they're their names. That's what people will be expected to call them. Obviously, the young people might decide they want to have different names or have short names or whatever. But again, it's, you can't use that, that's a made up name, or you can't do that because that doesn't align with your gender, blah, blah, So yeah, it doesn't follow any kind of logic, I think, other than just transphobia. That's it.
Arlo West (:Okay.
Exactly. like life also doesn't follow logic. No one knows what they're doing. And also if I wanted to be called book tomorrow, so what? Literally, so what?
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Hmm
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, now my brain's thinking about I used to teach English as a second language, or as an additional language to people who would come to the UK and stay here for a few months. And then they would like go home and go to uni or whatever. And ⁓ I used to teach a group of Thai kids and they actually chose English names to use. Apparently, that's like quite a common thing in Thai culture for people to have Angusized names. And they were literally things like boat and like
call us names but they were just words that the young people liked and then that's what they were known as. yeah, it was cool. ⁓ Okay, so thinking about that then that your like bold opinion isn't even that bold. Right, but clearly is to lots of other people. ⁓ I guess, how do you manage that? Like having bold opinions, supposedly.
Arlo West (:me.
to people like us.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:But being in, obviously it sounds like you're in spaces a lot of the time with people who get it, like your clients get it, know, maybe people that you're in other sort of networking connections with. yeah, like how, I don't know, is there any other ways in which you support yourself when you're maybe like interfacing, say like doing a video interview with ITV or, because that takes a lot out of you, doesn't it? It can be intense.
Arlo West (:It did blindside me. the questions that I was sent in advance were not the questions that were asked for ITV.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Wow, okay.
Arlo West (:that put the me in autistic, right? I was like, this is not the plan I'm blindsided now. I'm talking about trans people and like my lived experiences was a lot, but I think.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Uh-huh.
Arlo West (:I try and practice what I preach with my clients a lot as well. So I'm also helping a lot of people with social media and their strategy, their content that they post. And I'm a firm believer of what I call a go no go list. What are you comfortable talking about online? What are you not comfortable talking about online? And there was a client of mine when the assisted dying bill was being discussed and she's got lived experiences. She's a disabled person.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Hmm
Arlo West (:And she was like, I feel like people are looking at me on the internet to talk about this thing, but I'm not ready. I don't want to, but people are waiting for me. And I'm like, like, let them wait. If you are not ready, you do not have to yourself, you don't have to even talk about it ever on the internet if you don't want to. And so she just didn't, she's like, okay. If I want to post, whether that's now, in a year's time, 10 years time or never, I'm going to do it because I want to.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Mmm.
Arlo West (:not because it's topical at the time. So that's one thing that I try and embody in my own controversy on LinkedIn. But also being, it's horrible to say, but being prepared to be on the wrong side of the internet, which comes hand in hand with the timing. If you are posting something and you are like, would I be ready for Jerry to come back and say something really horrible?
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Mm-hmm.
you
Arlo West (:I'm not emotionally ready or prepared for that, you probably shouldn't be posting it at that time. So if you write the post then wait two months and you're ready to potentially deal with the backlash of Jerry's. Sorry, I don't know of any Jerry's, maybe that's why I've chosen Jerry. But like that's something that I'm also really considering when I'm on the internet now as well.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:You
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Yeah. So I guess like having boundaries around what does feel good and doesn't feel good to talk about and being prepared that whatever you talk about could blow up into like, yeah, not great areas.
Arlo West (:I mean touch it on
on LinkedIn I've only ever had to tell one man to fuck off because I'm my own boss I wasn't gonna fire myself for telling him to fuck off because he said something horrible and was doing the trans debate I'm like pop off pop off Steve see ya xoxo I just went okay and you can like politely like fuck off and leave me alone now he left me alone
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Okay.
⁓ huh.
Okay.
Mm-hmm
Mm-hmm.
Arlo West (:These men just need some authority in their lives, I'm telling you. ⁓
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah, yeah, I think that sounds really, just really important to have those those boundaries. ⁓ And, I guess with that in mind, then I'm wondering if there's anything else that you want to say or that would be good for us to talk about before we finish up.
Arlo West (:The world, okay, The world just needs to be more Paddington. That is the mantra that I live by I read a Paddington quote every single day and the world needs to just be more Paddington. Personally, professionally, it would just be a better place if we were all, if we all just acted a bit more Paddington. That's all I'm gonna leave it on really.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:No!
That's very cute. What do you like about Paddington in particular?
Arlo West (:What is there not to like? Right? ⁓ I even liked Paddington. I love Paddington so much. I don't do spreads in sandwiches. I don't really do condiments. I've made myself like Marmalade sandwiches just for Paddington. And he also used to be my client, which is a big flex of mine. ⁓ I've always loved Paddington, always have done. He's kind, he's got the best intentions. And for me, intention in life.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Aww.
my gosh, that's so cool.
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yay. Now imagining like you're walking around with little marmalade sandwiches in your pockets.
Arlo West (:Well, I do have ⁓ a little wicker basket from Fortnum and Mason and Palletine and Garou came out.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:cute!
Amazing.
That's very sweet ⁓ and very wholesome as well. ⁓ Okay. So if people are wanting to connect with you, obviously I'll share links in the show notes and on the YouTube link. But if there's anything that you want to plug, obviously you talked a little bit about some of the work you do, but yeah, where can people find you? How can people work with you if they want more Arlo in their lives?
Arlo West (:Sure, so where you can find me is probably playing with Roo. ⁓ But I'm not playing with Roo. You will find me on Instagram ⁓ and TikTok at studioarlo.png because some silly Billy took just studioarlo. My website is studioarlo.co.uk. I'm just Arlo West on LinkedIn. And then if you are intrigued about Not Your Business, the website for that is notyourbusiness.co.uk.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Mm-hmm.
Arlo West (:My email address is the same. So arlo at studio arlo.co.uk is where you can find me for anything. It's all pretty self explanatory. Just search Studio Arlo and hopefully I've done a good job at SEO, which is not my job, but it is now. Yep.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah, your job is everything. All the things.
Great. Okay. Well, thank you so much for joining me. It's been so great to chat to you. And yeah, I feel like there was just loads more things that we could have talked about. So yeah, thanks for your time.
Arlo West (:Thank you so much for having me and yeah we'll schedule in a day next time to go on rabbit.
Gem Kennedy (they/them) (:Yeah that
would be so fun and eat marmalade sandwiches as well. Yeah although they have to be gluten free I'm sorry, well my ones at least. Okay all right okay so I'm just gonna stop the recording.
Arlo West (:Absolutely.
